Note audio not available

JF:!Good.!We!are!going!to!talk!about!the!events!this!summer,!particularly!from!the!time!of!June!10th! when!we!all!got!that!famous!eAmail,!or!some!of!us!did,!to!the!reinstatement,!and!I'd!like!to!keep!the! focus!on!your!role!in!the!Rally!for!Honor,!but!we!can!talk!about!all!sorts!of!things!that!took!place.!! ORAL!HISTORY!:!dictated!by!JUDE!SILVEIRA concerning!the!Ouster!and!reinstatement!of!Teresa! Sullivan!as!President!of!The!University!of!Virginia.! RECORDED!November!11,!2012!!by!Joan!Fenton.!!Assisted!by!Mary Wines!and!Albie!Tabackman JF:!It!is!November!11,!2012.!My!name!is!Joan!Fenton,!and!I!am!going!to!interview!Jude!today,!and!I!am! going!to!have!you!say!your!name!and!spell!it!out!for!us.! Jude:!Okay.!Jude!Silveira.! Jude:!All!right.! JF:!The!best!place!to!start!is,!what's!your!affiliation!with!UVa?!Do!you!have!any?!! Jude:!Well,!I!graduated!from!the!law!school,!but!other!than!that!I'm!not!really!affiliated!with!the!school.! JF:!What!year?! Jude:!NinetyAeight.!Winter!of!ninetyAeight.! JF:!And!have!you!stayed!involved!with!the!school,!or!not!at!all?! Jude:!No,!not!at!all.!My!girlfriend!at!the!time!is!still!employed!there,!but!other!than!that!I!have!no!real! interaction!with!the!school.!! JF:!So!how!did!you!find!out!about!the!events of!June!10th?! Jude:!Well!it!was!a!Sunday!morning!at!about!10:00,!and!my!girlfriend!checked!her!eAmail!and!there!was! the!eAmail,!you!know,!about!the!resignation.!It!was!largely!a!real!shock,!and!it!raised!more!questions! than!it!answered.!It!was!curious!to!have!such!an!abrupt!resignation!without!any!explanation.!She! immediately!called!around!to!the!people!in!her!office!to!see!if!they!knew!anything,!and!within!an!hour!or! two!she!got!an!eAmail!from!her!dean,!and!he!really!didn't!know!anything!either.!So,!it was!kind!of!exciting! the!way!that!unfolded.!We!watched!on!the!news!conference!when!Dragas!spoke,!and!I!was!immediately! struck!by!how!unresponsive!and!combatant!she!was,!in!that!she!made!that!short!statement,!which!was! meaningless!really,!and!then!took!a!couple!of!questions,!but!was,!you!know,!a!bit!hostile!in!her!response! and!did!not!want!to!disclose!anything!and!pretty!much!that’s!we’re!going.!She!was!going!in!then!to!the! emergency!session!with!them!to!vote!to!accept!her!resignation,!and!that!of!course!kicked!up!a!little!bit! of!a!fire!storm!in!the!community.!You!know,!for!me,!I'm!one!of!those!Charlottesvillians!who!doesn't!have! a!great!fondness!for!the!school.!I'm!kind!of!not!a!big!Wahoo!person.!For!my!taste,!they!take!themselves!a! bit!too!seriously.!That!said,!I!have!great!respect!for!the!institution!of!higher!learning,!and!I!love!higher! Ed.!When!I!was!a!kid!my!dad!was!a!professor,!not!here,!but!in!Massachusetts.!He!did!do!graduated!work! around!here!though.!I!remember!being!a!kid!in!high!school!and!I!would love!reading!the!Chronicle!of! Higher!Ed.!I!just!have!this!interest!in!the!school!in!general,!and!in!their!mission.!I!have!also!had!a!real! sense!of!social!justice,!and!I!thought!when!the!facts!started!coming!out,!or!not!coming!out,!that!what! had!happened!was,!you!know!frankly,!it!was!unjust.!It!wasn't!right,!and!it!wasn't!the!way!we!treat! people,!and!not!just!here!at!UVa,!which!is!kind!of!the!issue!here,!but!anywhere.!You!just!don't!do!that! without!good!reason.!Some!of!the!speculation,!and!some!of!the!issues!raised!later!by!Helen's!letter! explaining!the!crisis!the!University!was!facing,!specifically!the!talk!of!all!of!the!disruptive!change! presented!by!technology,!communication,!MOOCs!and!the!like,!presented!in!a!world!view!that!was! anathema!to!higher!ed.!I!think!it!is!very!important!for!leaders!of!nonprofits!to!run!the!organizations!with! the!same!acumen!and!awareness!and!responsibility!to!that!equal!of!for!profit!corporations.!They!have!to! be!aware!of!competition!and!they!have!to!be!responsive!to!change.!That!said,!I!don't!think!that!the! issues!that!she!identified!were!what!appeared!to!be!her!very!rushed,!panicky!response!to!them!within! the!University,!or!for!that!matter!a!corporation.!So,!you!know,!my!longAwinded!answer!is!that!I!thought!it! was!disappointing and!bad!for!Higher!Ed,!and!it!was!just!a!bad!decision!all!around.!! JF:!Did!that!opinion!evolve!over!a!couple!of!days?!Do!you!remember!the!time!frame?! Jude:!Well,!you!know,!it!evolved!fairly!quickly,!because!the!events!unraveled!fairly!quickly.!Certainly!the! sense!that!something!was!the!wrong!way!to!treat!somebody!was!immediate.!But!her!way!of!handling! the!press!in!that!first!public!statement!did!strike!a!chord!in!me,!and!her!followAup!statements!and! releases!to!the!press!also!made!me!think!that!she!was!imperious!and!had!a!real!tonedAdown!approach! and!an!agenda.! JF:!Were!you!aware!of!who!any!of!the!other!members!of!the!Board!of!Visitors!were!at!that!point?!! Jude:!No.! JF:!So!then,!as!the!story!unfolded,!what!actions!did!you!take?!What!did!you!do!to!get!involved!or!what! were!the!discussions!that!you!had?! Jude:!Well,!fairly!soon!after!the!Monday!or!Tuesday,!I!was!watching!it!closely.!My!girlfriend!was!eA mailing!me!relaying!things!that!she!learned!from!inside,!and!no!one!really!had!much!information.!But! the!Facebook!was!a!place!to!talk.!You!know,!there!was!a!Facebook!group!doing!that,!and!I!was!vocal!on! that.!You!know,!I!was!interested,!because!I!was!able!as!an!attorney!(I!don't!practice!full!time,!I!do!a!little! bit!here!and!there,!but!what!I!do!is!in!the!area!of!nonprofits!and!governance)!I!knew!a!little!bit!more! than!most!people!that!were!talking!on!the!site!and!was!able!to!answer!questions!that!people!had,!"Can! we!do!this?"!!"Is!this!legal?" JF:!Right,!there!was!a!lot!of!that.! Jude:!Yeah,!and!so!that!was!interesting.!I!started!participating!on!that.!I!wrote!a!letter!to!the!board!and! signed!petitions!and!tried!to!get!friends!to!do!the!same.! JF:!Did!you!go!to!any!of!the!rallies!prior!to!the!Rally!for!Honor?! Jude:!So!there!was,!I!think,!at!the!first!full!board!meeting!there!was!a!big!rally.!I!was!working!that!day,! but!I!did!go!after!in!the!evening!and!was!surprised!it!was!still!going.!I!got!there!fairly!late!and!it!was!a! nice!little!community!of!tired!people.!! JF:!About!what!time!did!you!get!there?! Jude:!Probably!about!10:00!or!11:00.!I!stood!up!at!the!rotunda!peering!in!the!window!and!seeing!a!lot!of! very!tiredAlooking!people,!and!that!was!nice.!There!was!a!good!sense!of!community!there,!and!I!was!able! to!speak!undergrads!and!community!members!and!professors!and!a!whole!range!of!people.!The! community!that!was!forged!out!of!this!crisis!of!the!University!was!a!gift!of!sorts.!It!was!quite!nice.!I!am! not!sure!to!what!extent!that!people!inside!UVa!recognize!it,!but!it!was!one!that!really brought!the!larger! community!together.!I!think!that!when!you!are!in!it!doing!that,!in!the!fight,!you!might!not!realize!it,!but! there!was!a!lot!of!interest!in!that.!So!I!attend!that,!and!then!there!was!the!main!rally.! JF:!Now!how!did!we!connect?!Do!you!remember?! Jude:!Right.!So!I!was!active!on!the!Facebook!page,!and!there!was!talk!about!the!rally.!So!I!asked!Suzie!if!I! could!help!because!I!have!experience!in!theatre!and!helping!to!produce!big!events!that!are!not!just!in! theatres,!but!siteAspecific!ones,!and!in!empty!warehouses!and!whatnot,!and!experience!in!stage! managing!and!producing.!I!thought!I!had!something!to!offer!with!that,!so!I!volunteered!and!she!put!me! in!touch!with!you.! JF:!Which!of!course,!I!had!no!idea!what!your!skills!were,!I!knew!nothing!about!you,!you!were!just!a!name! on!my!Facebook!page.!There!was!always!that!sort!of!sorting!out,!"Is!this!person!really!okay!and! responsible?"!!And!whatever.!And!then!you!suggested,!I!think,!helping!with!getting!the!live!stream.! Jude:!I!think!I!brought!up!the!idea!of!live!stream.!! JF:!I!thought!it!was!you.! Jude:!Because!I!was!aware!that!there!was!this!Internet thing!it!was!sort!of!the!obvious.!! JF:!(laughing)!I!don't!think!either!of!us!were!that!skilled!at!that!point.!! Jude:!Yeah,!I!mean, I'm!not!the!tech!person!behind!it,!but!you!know,!this!happened!not!incidentally,!or! coincidentally,!that!no!one!was!around.!The!professors!had!all!left!for!vacation,!the!students!were!gone,! but!there!was!obviously!on!the!Facebook!page!a!great!deal!of!interest!across!the!country!and!beyond,! and!I!thought!that!it!would really help!the!cause!to!move!everyone!in!somehow.!So,!I!suggested!the!live! streaming,!and!was!sort!of!left!to!figure!out!how!to!do!that,!despite!my!lack!of!technical!skills.!! JF:!But!I!don't!think!I!knew!that!you!didn't!really!have!them.!I!think!that!we!just!went!"okay",!you'd!take! care!of!it,!right?! Jude:!Yeah.!Which!is!fine, I!mean, it!worked!out.!It!was!really!a!quite!interesting!time!at!the!school.!So,! we!met.!I!was!really!wanting!for!us!to!have!a!meeting,!a!little!production!meeting,!a board!thing.!We! were!going!to!meet!on!the!Friday,!which!we!did,!and!before!that!I!was!scrambling!around!the!University! making!contact!with!some!people!about!how!to!do!this!live!streaming.!It!was!the!most!amazing! atmosphere.!I!got!the!sense!that!pretty!much!everyone!was!just!left!to!do!whatever!they!wanted.! Everyone!had!been!given!the!green!light!to!help!on!this,!not!just!this!rally,!but!the!whole!campaign,! including!somebody!authorized,!"we're!gonna!have!the!IT!support",!and,!"we're!gonna!have!the!facility! support",!and!all!of!that!was!there.!It!was!just!very!interesting!to!scramble!around!from!place!to!place! trying!to!pull!all!of!it!together!which!we!managed!to!do.! JF:!So!how!did!you!find!the!videographer?! Jude:!Well!there!is!a!group!in!town!called!The!Filmmaker's!Republic,!and!a!friend!of!mine,!Brian! Wiemer,!who!is!a!filmmaker.!It's!just!a!group!of!independent!filmmakers and!actors!and!videographers.! So!I!posted!on!their!Facebook!site,!"Is!anyone!willing!to!do!the!videography!for!it”?! JF:!I!remember!getting!told!that!it!would!cost!XAamount!of!dollars.!I!was!talking!to!Suzie about!it!and!she! said!that!she!had!people!who!were!willing!to!pay,!because!he!wanted!to!charge!for!that.!! Jude:!Originally!he!was!assuming!it!was!going!to!be!unpaid,!but!then!it!was!difficult!making the! commitment,!and!we!were!under!such!pressure!about!it,!so!then!money!got!involved.!It!was!like,! "We've!got!to!nail!it!down"! JF:!And!then!where!did!you!get!the!Ethernet!cable!from?!! Jude:!Well,!at!first!I!met!people!at!the!digital!media!lab!to!get!some!general!information!about!how!this! sort!of!thing!could!work.!And then!I!hooked!up!with!one!of!the!committees!that!had!been!formed.!I! didn't!realize it!was!sort!of!a!committee,!I!was!just!told!to!meet!somebody!at!suchAandAsuch!a!time.!It! was!a!committee!meeting,!professors!were!in!there!and!it!was!like!"Well!hey,!I!don't!want!to!highAjack! your! meeting,!but!I!need!an!Ethernet!cable".!So!we!got!that!all!sorted!out.!And!so!the!school!arranged!the! Ethernet!cable!and!Internet connection!and!the!power.! JF:!So!I!remember!as!we!were!setting!up!the!rally,!I!still!didn't!know!anything!much!about!you,!other! than!you!had!volunteered!to!set!this!up.!I!had!the!volunteer!table,!and!I!had the!information!table,!and!I! had!the!speaker!table,!and!I!had!the!table!for!the!press,!and!I!asked!you!to!do!something!and!you!said, "I'll!take!care!of!the!speakers".! Jude:!Right.! JF:!So!tell!me!about!why!you!wanted!to!do!that,!and!tell!me!about!what!that!was!like.! Jude:!I!thought!that!was!a!natural!fit!from!my!stage!managing!experience.!And!it!was!funny,!when!we! had!our!Friday!meeting,!the!people!I!guess!who!were!in!our!committee!who!are!dealing!directly!with! trying!to!arrange...! JF:!That!would!be!Suzie!and!Anastasia.!Anastasia!wasn't!at!the!meeting,!but!Suzie!was!there.! Jude:!Right.!There!was!some!trepidation!I!guess!there,!and!then!later,!especially,!I!guess!it!was!Sunday! when!we!had!our!phone!conference,!about!the!egos,!and!about!how!it!was!a!real!delicate!balancing!act.! We!had!a!mix!of!people!there.!There!was!kind!of!a!sense!that!it!was!tricky!politically,!and!interpersonally,! and!I!just!thought,!"Well,!too!bad.!Let's!just!deliver!the!show".!I!didn't!think!it!was!going!to!be!that!big!of! a deal,!and!quite!frankly,!it's!much!easier!for!me!as!an!outsider!to!go!in!as!a!professional!stage!manager! person!than!it!is!for!somebody!in!graduate!school,!or!somebody!who!is!adjunct!visiting!faculty.!So!yeah,!I! volunteered!to!do!that.! JF:!So!I!remember!we!needed!something,!a!podium.!One!of!the!speakers!needed!a!podium,!and!we! were!totally!unprepared!for!that.!I!don't!remember,!do!you!remember!where!we!got!that?! Jude:!I!think!Walt!got!it.!It’s from!the!Rotunda.!It!was!emblazoned!with!the!Seven!Secret Society!sign.! JF:!(laughing)!Was!there!trepidation!about!that?! Jude:!I!think!there!was!some!concern,!yeah.!And!the!best!part!was,!that!after!the!whole!thing!was!over,! we!couldn't!get!it!back!into!the!Rotunda.! JF:!Because!it!was!locked.! Jude:!Because!it!was!locked.!And!you!know,!I!guess!this!was!some!sacred!piece!of!property,!and!if!we! had!lost!it,!I!imagine!we!would've!lost!our!lives.!Somebody!would've!died.!That's!how!they!operate!in! those!secret!societies.! JF:!What!else!do!you!know!about!them?! Jude:!Well!I!know!all!the!members.!I!don't!know!whether!they,!do!they!dress!up!with!funny!hats?! JF:!I!don't!know.!I'm!still!learning!a!lot!about!UVa.!So!they!rally!was!supposed!to!go!from!2:00!to!4:00,! and!you!had!all!these!speakers,!and!I!remember!at!about!3:10!Walt!or!Gloria!coming!up!to!me!and! saying!"You've!got!to!speed!these!people!up,!'cause!we're!gonna!be!here!till!5:00!and!it's!been!going! forever".! Jude:!Right.! JF:!And!we!decided!that!Walt,!as!the!professor,!was!the!one!to!go!up!and tell!them!all!they!had!to!drop! their!speeches!and!speed!it!up.!Do!you!remember!that!part!at!all?! Jude:!Yeah!well!at!the!time...!That!was!another!reason!I!wanted!to!be!up!there,!'cause!I!knew!from! experience!that!any!public!event like!that!can!easily!go off!the!tracks,!and!there!were!a!ton!of!professors! and!they!all!said!"Sure,!4!minutes,!6!minutes,!no!problem",!but!no!one!ever!does!4A6!minutes.!They! always!do!8A10!minutes.!So!what!I!was!trying!to!do!was!eliminate!all!the!gaps,!as!many!gaps!as!possible.! I!was!having!professors!lining!up!in!the!order!that!they!were!supposed!to!speak.!You!know,!"stay!there"! and!"How!long!are!you!going!to!speak?"!And!it!was!droning!on,!and!we!were!getting!worried!about!that. I!don’t!know!if!Walt!went!and!spoke.! I!asked!both Suzie!and!Anastasia about!what!we!were!going!to!do!about!it,!and!if!it!was!alright!to!ask! them!to!shorten!things,!or!to!combine!people!to!have!them!speak!together!to!save!some!time!and! whatnot,!and!they!seemed!to!be!okay!with!it,!other!than!not!really!wanting!to!do!the!approaching.!So!I! guess!Walt!spoke!them,!and!I!was!going!through!also,!seeing!if!they!could!shorten!it!up!a!bit!or!combine,! and!some!of!them!were!really!good!about!it!and!volunteered,!and!others...!I!have!no!problem,!but!I! don't!blame!them.!I!mean!that's!the!worst!thing,!in!the!last!minute!preparing!something!and!you're! nervous!about!speaking,!everyone!gets!nervous,!and!you!work!hard!on!your!speech,!and!to!have!some kid come!up!ten!minutes!before!you're!going!on!and!saying,!"Do!you!mind!changing!it!up!a!little!bit!and! shortening!it?".!It's!like,!"Oh!I!had!this!down".!That!is!so!painful,!so!I!understood!where!they!were! coming!from.! JF:!And!as!I!recall!there!were!also!some!professors!who!weren't!on!the!list!who!showed!up!at!the!last! minute!and!said!they!wanted!to!speak.! Jude:!Yes.! JF:!How!was!that!handled?!Do!you!know?! Jude:!That!was!handled!by!me!punting.!Because,!I!didn't!make!this!mess,!alright,!and!I!was!fine!just! saying, "You!can't!do!it",!but!I!realized!that!there!was!politics!involved,!and!there!were!some!people!that! they!did!want!to!have!speak,!and!others!that!they!said!no!to.!And!I!think!pretty!much!I!punted!that!to! Anastasia because!she!had!been!the!one!organizing,!and!that!was!the!right!thing!to!do.!That!was!her! area,!and!I!guess!Walt,!I!imagine,!may!have!helped!with!some!of!that.!You!know,!from!the!stage! manager's!perspective,!last!minute!changing!on!the!fly!is!never,!well!it!can!be!fun,!but!it's!not!a!big!deal.! So!we!were!changing!on!the!fly!a!little!bit.!! JF:!And!then!I remember!we!had!the!statement!from!the!politicians!after!we!ran!out!of!time.! Jude:!Well,!yeah!that!was!interesting!because!I!think!one!of!the!things!we!were!all!in!agreement!with!on! the!committee,!except!for!the!people!that!were!working!directly!with!the!professors,!was!that!we! wanted!to!have!a!mix!of!voices.!Obviously!we!were!largely!community!members!and!felt!that!this!issue! went!beyond!the!professorial,!and!I!felt!that!people!on!staff,!students,!people!of!the!community,!and! alumni!should!be!represented.!And!they!weren't!fairly!represented!until!then,!with!two!exceptions.!One! was...! JF:!Steve!Nash!! Jude:!...!and!I!think!that!you!wisely!asked!some!politicos!to!come!for!the!board!to!have!a!member!of!City! Council!speak!and!read!messages!from!other!politicians.!And!then!on!the!day!of,!a!couple!of!the! honorables that!were!called!included!cabinet!members,!staff,!community!members.!So!we!were!looking! to!see!if!anyone!was!willing!to!step!down,!and!Kristin!was!signed!up!to!be!the!last!to!speak!and!to!read! these!messages,!and!from!an!audience!perspective,!in!the!sense!of!producing!a!rally,!having!people!read! prepared!statements!by!people!who!aren't!there!isn't!the!most!riveting.! JF:!It's!anticlimactic,!in!other!words.! Jude:!Yeah.!So,!I!don't!know!who!came!up!with!the!idea,!but!I!certainly!supported!it,!that!we!had!to!cut!it! somehow.!I!approached!her,!but!it!was!unfortunate.!I!don't!think!until!I!spoke!to!her!that!I!realized!she! actually!had!something!prepared,!that!she!was!speaking.!And!so!that!was!probably!the one!thing!that!I! felt!maybe!we!fumbled!a!little!bit.!And!the!root!of!that!really!was!that!the!committee!was!preparing!and! trying!to!get!speakers!from!the!community!at!a!time!when!we!didn't!have!many!professors!signed!up,! and!then!the!dam!broke!and the!Sunday!before!hand!there!was!a!ton!of!people!signing!up,!so!there!was! some!miscommunication!there,!which!is!natural.!Everything!was!happening!so!quickly.!What's!amazing!I! think!for!the!entire!community,!including!community!people!active!with!UVa,!was!just!how!well! everyone!played!ball!and!came!together.!I!imagine!as!a!professor!you!see!a!lot!of!fellow!professors!up! there!and!you!want!to!speak,!but!it's!tough!to!say,!"Alright,!I!won’t!be!the!one!representing!Engineering"! if!that's!what!you!want!to!do.!So,!there!was!a!good!sense!of!comradery!and!purposefulness!there,!and!a! lot!of!humility,!and!it!was!nice.! JF:!Were!you!able!to!listen!to!the!speeches,!or!were!you!so!involved!with!trying!to!get!people!up!that! you!didn't!really...! Jude:!I!really!did!not!hear!the!speeches!until!the!last!20!minutes!or!so.!I!was!very!focused!just!on! checking!everyone!in,!trying!to!remember!who!they!were,!arranging!them!in!order,!juggling!the!lastA minute!changes,!and!then!really!trying!to!speed!things!along!as!much!as!possible!by!cutting!out.!We! began!with!the!introductions!being!made!and!then!the!person!walking!up!to!the!podium,!but!we!were! losing!30!seconds!here!because!of!momentum!being!broken!up.!Little!things!like!that.! JF:!What!did!you!feel!was!the!emotion!of!the!rally?!What!kind!of!sense!did!you!get!when!you!were! behind...!the!way!it!was!set!up!was!the!speakers!were!rallying behind!the!steps!of!the!Rotunda,!next!to! the!Rotunda,!so!you!were!looking!out!at!the!crowd!the!whole!time.!So!what!was!the!sense!that!you! had?! Jude:!Yeah,!so!that!was!interesting.!While!I!was!largely!concerned!with!keeping!the!momentum!up!and! the!speakers!going,!my!sense!of!theatrical!was in tuned!to!the!mood!and!to!the!arc!of!the!event.!And!so!I! tried,!when!things!were!simmering!down!a!bit!in the!lineup!in!that!last!half!an!hour,!to!agitate!a!little,!to! build!up!some!of!that!momentum.!And!I!thought!the!key!to!that!was!having!Suzie!speak,!and!some!of! the!other!student!speakers!were!also!pretty!powerful!in!what!they!had!to!say.!I!was!actually!pretty! moved!by!what!the!head!of!the!Honor!Committee!had!to!say,!even!though!it's!not!my!cup!of!tea,!all!that! "I’m!for!lying!and!stealing",!but!I!could!sense!that!it!was!moving!that!people!who!were!so!invested!and! so!believing!and!serious!about!the!honor!code!and!Jeffersonian!traditions!who!were!so!almost!hurt!by! what!was!happening!to!their,!to!Mr.!Jefferson's!University.!! JF:!So!did!you!stay!involved!after!that!event?!What!was!your!involvement!after!the!rally?!! Jude:!I!helped!clean!up.!There!was!the!final!day!of.! JF:!I!think!that!was!Thursday.! Jude:!Yeah.!So!I!was!active!online!a!bit.!I!was!actually!exhausted!by!the!time!we!finished!that.!Was!that! on!a!Tuesday?! JF:!I!think!Sunday.!It!was!a!Sunday!rally,!and!then!Thursday!was!when!the!board!met. Anyone!want!to!correct!me!in!the!room? Jude:!So!we!had!our!phone!meeting!on!Saturday,!then!the!Sunday!rally,!and!I!was!really!tired.!I!thought! the!board!meeting!was!on!Tuesday.! JF:!It!could've!been!Tuesday.! Jude:!Yeah,!'cause!I!was!shattered.!I!went!to!that!meeting!and!I!remember!seeing!you!there.!I!was!just! like!"uhhhg".!But!that!was!fun.!That!was!more!of!a!festive!atmosphere.!For!me Rally!for!Honor,!I!guess! the!call!had!gotten!out!that!there!were!politicians!in!Richmond!who!were!getting!a!bit!antsy.!I!think! there!was!some!quote!about!the!"inmates!running!the!asylum",!in!reference!to!the!faculty!and! professors!being!involved!in!the!governance!of!the!University.!So!I!gathered!that,!and!it!may!have!been from!you,!that!the!votes,!and!this!was!after!the!fact,!that!they!had!the!votes!on!that!Saturday,!but!if! there!was!a!raucous,!anti....! JF:!They!had!the!votes!the!night!before.!! Jude:!Yeah,!so!that!would've!been!Saturday,!and!if!there!had!been...! JF:!No!no!no,!Sunday!was!the!rally,!so!if!the!board!meeting!was!Tuesday,!it!had!to!be!Monday!night!that! they!had!it.!It!would!have!been!the!27th!was!the!reinstatement.!The!10th!was!the!eAmail; I!think!the! Tuesday!probably!was!the!board!meeting.! Jude:!Right.!So!there!was!some!sense!that!some!of!the!possible!"yes"!to!reinstate!votes!would!not!vote! if!the!rally!got!personal,!or!if!it!was!angry.!That!message!came!down!when!we!had!our!phone!meeting! on!Saturday.!The!message!that!came!down!was!civility,!and!no!signs,!no!antiADragas!signs!and!no!unA UVa!stuff,!any!shame,!whatever!incendiary,!horrible!things!to!say.!Bad!drama Dragas,!we!couldn't!do! that.!It!was!not!a!radical!rally.!Not!that!I!actually!needed!to!be!reAliving!the!60s.Cretainly!not!for!me.! So! it!was!more!stage!managed,!but!that!apparently!politically!astute!move,!while I!was!not!totally!satisfied necessarily!to!a!lot!of!the!people!who!were!there!for!the!rally,!it!was!apparently!effective.!! JF:!So!had!you!ever!been!to!a!crowd!presence!rally!before?! Jude:!Yeah.! JF:!Where!was!that.!! Jude:!Well!I!guess!my!first!was!in!college,!and!it!was!a!rally!for!Soviet!Jewry,!for!the!rights!of!Jewish! people!in!the!Soviet!Union.!Then!I!went!down!for!an!antiAwar!rally!on!the!eve!of!the!first!Iraq!war,!and! that!was!a!large!rally!in!DC,!and!that!had!a!lot!of!veterans!from!the!60s!rallies!doing!their!thing,!which! didn't!probably!speak!to!me!because!I'm!not!big!on!some JF:!So!you've!had!time!since!all!of!these!events.!Have!you!had!time!to!think!about!why!you!think!this! happened,!why!did!they!ask!for!her!resignation,!or!who!was!behind!it,!or!any!of!that!that!you!are!willing! to!share?! Jude:!Well!I!think!it's!pretty!clear!that!it!was!Helen!and!Mark!Kington who!were!orchestrating,!and!I! think!that!is!the!correct!word!from!seeing,!well!she!went!out!with!that!first!statement!saying!that!they! had!full!support!of!the!board,!that!everyone!was!on!board,!that!they!were!in!agreement,!but!they! actually!never!agreed,!and!at!best!she!had!gone!around!individually!speaking!to!people!perhaps,!but! circumventing the!open!meeting!rules.!I've!been!on!boards!and!I!know!that!oneAonAone!talking!with! people!can!be!more!effective.!It!certainly!helps!you!get!everyone!on!board!before!you!bring!up!a!vote.!I! don't!like!it!personally,!but!that!seems!to!be!the!way!she!operated.!What's!telling!is!the!timeline!itself,! you!know,!that!Teresa!Sullivan!was!hired!just!a!couple!of!years!ago,!that!her!first!year!went!smoothly,! and!nothing!is!on!record!and!no!rumors!about!anything!being!wrong,!of!anyone!having!an!issue!with! her.!From!what!I!could!gather,!and!I'm!not!in!the!inner!circle,!that!she!had!been!asked!not!to!do!a! strategic!plan,!but!the!followAup!as!had!already!been!done,!and!that!beginning!in!the!fall!prior!to!this! event!some!of!the!people!on!the!board!started!to!have!issues!and!the!issues!seemed!to!be!focused!on! strategic!decisions.!I!know!that!there!are!issues,!there!is!a!crisis!for!a!lot!of!university!hospitals!that!are! unable!to!compete!effectively!now!against!hospital!chains!and!are!changing!the!quality!of!care!which!are! unsettling!the!environment!in!which!hospitals!work,!whether!it!may!be!felt!to!see!reduced!revenues! from!Medicare!hope!to!make!it!up!by!having!more!patients,!so!I!know!that!the!hospital!is!one!big!issue.! And!then!there!is!a!lot!of!this!going!on!about!competition!from!MOOCs,!from!online,!from!technology,! which!now!from!what!I!have!read!from!these!eAmails,!from!the!articles!she!was!sending!around,!quite! frankly!they!seem!to!have!overreacted.!There!is!nothing!that!would!justify!rash!action,!and!certainly! nothing!that!would!justify!needing!a!new!president,!and!to!do!so!in!that!manner!is!just!small!in!my!mind.! What!is!clear!to!me,!and!what!I!wrote!in!my!letter,!was!that!regardless!of!whatever!it!is!they!sought!out! to!achieve,!they!failed on!all!accounts.!If!they!were!hoping...!they thought!she!was!going!to!be!a!fund! raiser,!that!they!wanted!to!get!more!money,!that!they!wanted!somebody!who!would!be!better!able!to! rally!alumni,!that!they!wanted!someone!to!improve!the!public!image!of!the!school,!they!wanted!to! attract!star!faculty,!new hires,!more!students,!better!ratings,!leap!into!new!territory!online!or!whatever,! everything!that!they!did!undermined!that.!It!alienated!the!community,!it!angered!professors,!people! who!were!thinking!of!attending!the!school!probably!thought!differently,!ratings!would!have!gone!down! if!she!hadn't!been!reinstated,!or!they!may!have!gone!down,! The rankings!of!the!school,!star!faculty!left,!(??) donations!disappeared,!and!the!school!got!a!big!black! mark.!It!was!a!humiliation!for!the!University.!It!was!just!utter!negligence,!or!worse,!on!the!part!of! Dragas!and!the!others!on!the!board.!So!it!is!quite!shocking,!given!such!a!disaster!on!all!levels,!that!she! remains!in!charge.!I!think!anyone!elsewhere,!who!oversaw!such!a!debacle,!would've!been!shown!the! door.!And!it's!ironic!that!somebody!who!really!was!trying!to!bring!corporate!style!responsibility!to!the! University!not!only!acted!so!unprofessionally!and!incompetently,!but!that!she!remains,!where!in!the! corporate!world!she!probably!wouldn't.!! JF:!Is!there!anything!I!didn't!ask!you!that!you'd!like!to!add?!And!then!I!will!see!if!these!guys!have!some! questions!I!didn't!ask!you.! Jude:!Um,!yeah.!Am!I!going!to!be!sued?! JF:!I!don't!think!so.!You!know!it!was!only!your!opinion.!! Jude:!It's!all!in!the!letter.!! JF:!You!didn't!get!a!response!from!your!letter,!did!you?!Did!anybody!get!a!response!from!any!of!the! letters!that!you!know!of?! Jude:!I!didn't,!no.!I!sent!it!to!a!politician,!so!I!got!just!a!"thank!you!for!your!letter".!But!it's!on!my!hard! drive.! JF:!Mary!(,!do!you!have!anything!you!wanted!to!add?! Mary:!I!think!we!covered!a!lot!of!things,!just!because!of!your!involvement!in!the!rallies.!It!was!great!that! you!went!into!such!detail!there.!Do!we!want!to!go!into!any!of!the!big!overarching!theory!questions,!or! anything?! JF:!Do!you!have!an!arching!theory!here?! Mary:!Exactly.! Albie:!Any!thoughts!about!where!it's!going!in!the!future?!Has!it!ended,!or!is!this!a!continuing!problem,! and!where!do!you!think!it's!going.! Jude:!Well!I!haven't!been!paying!close!attention!you!know,!so!I!can't!speak!to!UVa!specifically,!but!it's! clear!that!there!are!two!major!forces!right!now.!One!is!national!and!applies!to!everything,!and!it's!about! the!corporatization!of!things.!It's!the!focus!on!measureable!returns!on!investment!and!money!as!the! goal,!and!that!is!effecting!universities,!where!a!university!has!as!their goal,!as!their!outcome,!nonA quantifiable!things,!knowledge,!discovery,!betterment!of!students!and of human!kind.!That's!not!an! overstatement,!more!of!a!sacred!mission.!That!is!true!in!the!universities,!as!well!as!other!nonAtangible! areas!like!the!arts,!something!that!is!under!increasing!pressure.!The!universities!themselves!are! undergoing!change!from!a!lot!of!forces,!demographics,!price.!Part!of!it!they!are!saying!is!their!own!fault.! I!think!there!is!increased!competition,!but!really!it!is!an!arms!race!to!have!star!faculty,!and!to!do!that! they!teach!fewer!classes,!they!get!paid!more,!and!they!need!more!benefits!and!perks.!For!students,! there!is!an!arms!face!for!great!campuses!and!great!sports!teams!and!great!facilities!and!dorms,!and! that's!the!market!place.!I!went!to!a!school!that!had!great!dorms,!believe!me.!Skidmore!College.!But!it's! part!of!the!reason!why!the!cost!of!attending!school!is!so!high,!and!the!problem!with!that!is!it!has!created! a!bubble!similar,!I!think,!to!the!housing!bubble,!where!you!have!guaranteed!student!loans,!students!are! taking!out!massive!amounts!of!debt!just!to!attend!school,!and!they!are!leaving!school!unable!to!do!what! maybe!they!would!want!to!do.!There!are!a!lot!of!society!benefits!from!having!people!who!want!to!be! academics,!who!want!to!teach!school,!who!want!to!travel!and!contribute!in!many!ways!to!society!in! ways!that!society!needs,!but!too!many!are!forced!to!forgo!that,!put!it!on!the back!burner!to!pursue!a! career!where!they!can!make!money!enough!to!pay!their!loans!back.!Of!course!there!are!people!who! want!to!just!make!money,!and!I'm!not!particularly!a!moneyAmotivated!person,!but!there!are!people!who! like!a!surplus,!or!who!just!happen to!be!interested!in!banking!or!insurance,!or!whatever!it!is,!who!want! to!be!entrepreneurs,!more!power!to!you.!But!to!be!forced!at!such!a!young!age!to!do!that,!or!feeling!you! have!to!do!that,!is!a!loss!for!society.!It's!something!a!lot!of!people!in!the!past,!you!know,!they!go!out!in! their!midA20s!and!they!pursue!that!and!enrich!their!lives.!They!do!things,!they!travel,!maybe!they!start!a! company,!or!maybe!they!start!a!theatre!company,!or!whatAhaveAyou.!But!society!is!richer!for!that.!And!it! may!be!that!when they!marry!and!have!kids!that!they!need!to!change!their!job,!and!that's!fine,!but! we're!better!off!ultimately!because!of!them.!And!so!it's!sad!that!in!this!society!that!pursuit!of! knowledge,!that!school!is!out!of!reach!for!so!many!people,!and!that!shackling!students!with!debt. I! remember!otherwise.! The!MOOC!thing!I!think!is!ridiculous.!You!can!have,!like!Liberty!University;!I was! reading!have!! a!ton!of!students!online.!And!that!is!a!business!model,!and!not!in!a!bad!way!a!business! model!for!a!University. That!may!be!okay,!the!right!way!to!go,!it!may!not!be.!But!I!think!the!MOOCs!is! (????).! JF:!Well!thank!you!very!much.!